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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 03:35 am |
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Hello all,
My name is Jim. I just registered. A first timer. I live in Central Florida and boy is it hot. I've been riding about 5 yrs and consider myself an intermediate to advanced beginner. I am 51 yr old and still have some bounce in my ride. I have only owned gaited horses. 2 twh and a racking mare. I've recently sold my racking mare and my older walker. What a sad experience. I now only have a 3yr old dapple grey gelding walker that I've recently started under saddle. I bought him when he was 8 months old. I know, green and green don't mix. His name is Charm's Silver Star and I call him Silver. He's a hoot! I've ridden him about a dozen times. He's never had training other than me and my Clinton Anderson videos. He's been terribly easy so far. He hasn't as much as tightened a muscle while saddling and riding. Here's my question: I started him in a snaffle bit and he does good at a walk. When just sitting, he is so soft with his later flexion. When I push him up into a faster gait (hopefully a running walk) or cantor he will not give his head laterally. I can force his head with a hard pull to the side, but I do not want to make him hard-mouthed. I bought a sidepull so I could get out of his mouth. I still don't know if I should force his head around and if I do I can't get his body to follow his nose and curve with the pressure. I've tried using my legs (which he listens to at a walk), but he just plows straight ahead with his body angled until he's ready to run into the fence. If I put him in a round pen and push him up into a cantor, he stays so close to the rail I'm banging my leg into the panels. I force his head to tip inward and he still stays right on the rail. I have to turn my toe in so it doesn't catch anything and possibly break my ankle. I can lung him in the yard on a 15 ft lead rope and he's fairly soft with his head and holds the circle without a lot of pull. How do I make him give when doing a faster gait while on his back? I also have a stupid question about working horses in general. Even my mares would do this: Everytime I've made any of them work on the lung or in the roundpen they all tend to want to stop every couple of minutes to have a bowel movement. I'm thinking they are doing this to get out of work. Or are they more honest than that? Should I allow them to stop and do their job or make them keep moving? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm not real sure of myself sometimes and don't want to ruin him. I love working with the young guy and will be mighty proud when I can prance him down the road to the trails. I walked him up the street under saddle to a vacant 5 acres and rode him around there a while. There are green houses on the next property on the back side with big fans going. He went right by. He kept his eye on them, but he did good. Especially since I only had him in a sidepull without any bit. I actually rode him the couple of blocks back to the house. This was his first time off my property. Pretty cool!
Thanx,
Jim
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Karal
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Fri Aug 29th, 2008 12:40 pm |
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First - welcome, enjoy
Then I would say sloooow down. He has been ridden a dozen times?. I would say he only should be walking. I would be working on walking, leg pressure and giving to the rein. I would do this till he is flawless. Him plowing through legs and reins is saying he is not understanding what you want of him. He is basically running blind. Once he is understanding what you want at a walk he will be ready for the next step adding gait. Only one step at a time. Young horses IMO need short frequent training sessions.
As for pooping on the lunge line or round pen. I don't concern myself with young horses doing this. Exercise makes them go. Once under saddle they learn to go and keep moving. I personally don't lunge horses once they are trained and on the trails.
Last edited on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 12:43 pm by Karal
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slipslider
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 02:32 am |
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I agreee with Karal, but will add one more point here. I am thinking since you have been using Clinton Anderson methods you have your horse flexing his neck laterally in preparation for a one rein stop, ect.
Many green horses do not know what a pull on the reins are all about and so when you pull on reins they will either pull back or resist the pull (brace against it). The best way to teach the horse to give to this pressure is to use a slight bumping action. Do not pull straight back, but bring your hand out to the side and bump the rein (horse is not able to resist this kind of pressure) and will give more easily. Remember what Clinton always says, try easy and then hard enough to get the job done. At the same time you are doing this also use leg pressure. Some horse are more sensitive in their sides than others, again start out easy and then harder. But the key is: As soon as the horse tries, reward by instantly giving. Release leg pressure and stop bumping the rein. And yes, do this in the walk until this horse fully understands and easily turns to your cues and then progress up to the gait.
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LaVonne
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Daphne
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Sun Aug 31st, 2008 08:01 pm |
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Just a simple little exercise that I have always used when starting a baby. I usually start this as yearlings well before I am planning to start riding, but can be used at any age of course. I tack them up and walk beside them holding the reins where I would be if riding so that I can use similar pressure. At a stand still I will do gentle side pressure with the reins to teach flexing the neck in both directions. Just slight pressure, rewarding any slight give until they are flexing all the way around with very little pressure. When that is learned then I will have them walk and when I give the rein pressure, I will put my other hand on their side where my leg will be and have them curve their body to walk around me. I'll do that in both directions.
At any time after I've started riding them if I feel these areas are lacking. I will go back and do a refresher from the ground.
I also teach them the whoa cue with the reins this way. So by time I actually get in the saddle I am confident that they will whoa and turn on cue (which means the one rein stop is a done deal, also). I just have to teach them to move forward.
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Will Ride for Christ
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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 03:27 am |
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I guess it's just going to take some time. I was making him move into faster gaits to wake his feet up. He's pretty slow and I generally have to go thru the leg squeeze, cluck, and then spank sequence to get him to shift gears. As soon as i pick up a rein a little to either side he uses that as a signal to slow back down to a walk. He thinks everything with the rein is a one rein stop. That's probably not a bad habit to have. I had him in the back pasture today and a neighbor's dog snuck up on the other side of the wire fence and weeds and started barking just as we were going by and Silver spooked and jumped and I pulled his head around and he came straight to a stop. That was the first spook he's ever done with me. I used to get several of those per trail ride with my racking mare. He had one point in the ride where I was trying to make him yield to leg pressure and the harder i got with it the more he moved into the leg. He was practically side passing into the leg pressure side. I think he got confused with what I wanted so I just stopped him and let him stand a few minutes and then asked him to just move forward again. I didn't want to get into a shoving match with him using my legs. I'll continue bumping with my legs along with the reins and eventually he'll get the leg cue.
Jim
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Ice House
G.O.G Community Member
| Joined: | Wed Feb 7th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 88 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 05:23 pm |
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I would move the horse to a curb bit and teach it to stay offf the bit. Snaffles are not good to take ahold of the horses mouth, they pull in the wrong direction and teach the horse to get it's head up. If you are insistent on using a snaffle then you could get by for a little longer with a tie back or a tie down. I would recommend that you not do this and learn the horse with the bit as soon as possible and not waste time.
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ShadyDeal
G.O.G Community Member
| Joined: | Tue Jun 10th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 61 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 07:33 pm |
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You should not move any horse to a curb bit to teach it to stay off the bit. You do not want the horse to avoid the bit. A bit should also not be used to “take a hold of the horses mouth”. A snaffle does not teach a horse to “get it’s head up” or “pull in the wrong direction”. Please do not tie back or down any horses head. I am not familiar with Clinton Andersons methods but light contact should always be use with any bit. I know bumping of the mouth is often suggested but you can release the pressure on the rein that the horse is bracing against and it will learn not to brace against the bit. This would be riding with more of a “giving hand” not one that punishes.
I agree with Karal, sloooooow down. Get out of the round pen. Do not try to teach so much. Just walk on trail with him listening to simple aids and make sure he is not picking up any bad habits.
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McKTX5
G.O.G Community Member
| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | McKinney, TX |
| Posts: | 145 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 08:39 pm |
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First let me say welcome to the GOG MB!!!
Second let me say, seems like I have heard Clinton say not to move faster until you horse is responding perfectly at the slower gaits. I think he would tell you to do more ground work getting him to give and be soft. Then in the saddle to soften to the bit, not to move to a curb bit to get him off the bit.
Clinton's methods sure do work! But, he says time and time again that something this is not quite right will just get worse the faster you get, sounds like your boy is agreeing with that from your post.
Three is still very much a baby. Glad to hear that you are willing to back off and give him time to grow and strengthen and use that time to do the ground work and working your walk!
Again, welcome and we love pictures!
Carol
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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 1st, 2008 11:34 pm |
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Actually, both Clinton A. and Dennis R. both push their horses into a cantor right away in the roundpen. They use a partner with a training stick to direct the horse. Cinton and Dennis are just passengers at this point. That's how they get the horse to yield their hind quarters and move their front end. Clinton's videos are arranged by day1, day2, etc. He generally does a dozen or so rides in a hackamore (non-mechanical)/bosal before he goes to a snaffle bit. My other walker rode in a mild curb and just would not listen to a snaffle at all. She was 15 yr old and had a mouth like an old leather shoe. She would stretch her neck out against rein pressure and run right through a snaffle. I do not want Silver to get like this. Here's a picture of my ex-racking mare, Sunny. She was my first horse and I just sold her in May along with my son's TWH mare. All I have is Silver to train now. I miss trail riding. I have 3 other horses boarded here. A standerdbred, an Arabian/Saddlebred cross, and a huge Fresian/Clydesdale cross. I'll attach a picture later of Silver when I am on the other computer.
JIm
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souzko
G.O.G Community Member
| Joined: | Fri Oct 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 132 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 02:39 am |
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Such a handsome boy, and such a sweet expression. I'll let those with more knowledge advise, I just wanted to comment on your Silver.
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Susan O.
http://www.miragecardigans.com
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McKTX5
G.O.G Community Member
| Joined: | Sun Apr 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | McKinney, TX |
| Posts: | 145 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 03:44 am |
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Your mare is beautiful! That color sorrel is almost like a dark palomino!
My Bad, I thought you were taking your youngster outside and cantering! Didn't realize you were in a roundpen being a passenger! Richard Winters also canters youngsters on the first few rides, with a passenger on board.
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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 01:49 am |
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This is Silver again. I'll have to get some more recent photos to show how he's dappling. He's quite the handsome horse.
Jim
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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 01:53 am |
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I posted this picture and now I don't see it. I'll try again. It's Silver's first mount.
Jim
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Karal
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Thu Sep 4th, 2008 03:44 am |
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jn1022 very nice looking boy you have there. I hope all your training goes well.
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ChampagneTobe
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 12:39 pm |
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Hey Jim- i got to reading your post and thought back to when I started my baby last year , everything that we went through with training up to that point, and how far we've come since. I thought to myself- oh my, where do you start with advice on training a colt when there is so much? I have had the good fortune to listen to the advice on this messageboard, and listen to my colt at the same time. The singlemost important thing I did for my colt was to work at his pace in his time frame. It is SO hard for your young'un to gain trust in you and his own self-confidence back when he's pushed too hard too fast. It is much easier (although you have to have the patience of Job) to work in baby steps and wait for him to tell you when he's ready to advance.
Slow and consistent is the key here. One subject at a time until they're proficient. For example, working on leg cues, mouth lightness and gear change all in one ride is a recipe for confusion and resistance. Be willing to pick one thing to work on at a time so as to give your boy time to understand and apply it before working on another concept. The time frame you keep to until you move on depends on Silver. When he consistently responds correctly, begin another thing and add that to what you were just doing. Keep compounding the new lessons onto the old ones until all you have to do is perfect your ride. Whether your time frame for each concept is a few days or a month depends entirely on how much time you are spending on it with him. Remember though that working too long on one thing in one session can make them check out mentally. Don't overdo it either. I found that working Cajun 15-30 min. at a time was his limit. We stuck to that religiously. He has now been under saddle for a year and is an amazing trail horse. Super confident, brave, and light.
Good luck to you. Keep us posted and welcome!
CT
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"God forbid I should go to a heaven where there are no horses" R.B. Cunningham Graham
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slipslider
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 02:02 pm |
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| Champagne- very well said!
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LaVonne
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twhstone
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 05:16 pm |
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It can take a lot of time to get one to correctly give to the bit. Don't force the issue with him because you will end up with a stiff braced horse. Teach him to give by lightly asking. At first he will give then bring his face right back up. You have to keep asking until he understands that you want him to give his face and keep it there. My filly has been under saddle a year and only now am I starting to ask her to work on collection and gait.
One thing that might help is checking him up in a safe place for 15 minutes or so daily. They can teach themselves to give to the bit. Use a snaffle and check him so that his head is about where you want it with a little extra room. I don't like to see a horse checked to the point they can't move. Leave him alone (watch but don't work him) to figure it out for 15-20 minutes.
The other thing I am sold on to teach a horse to use itself properly is ground driving.
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HopeMissouri
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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Congratulations on your lovely boy!
The scariest thing for me, starting my own horse, was the realization that everything he knew, I had taught him. Good and bad.
I'm not a good person to give you advice on a bit. Since I just trailride, I'm still riding my guys in rope halters unless we're riding in clinics where I need to be more particular with where I'm asking for nose, shoulders, hips and feet. However, the communication is there with the hackamore, so it's not been a big deal to go to the snaffle.
Again, I'm older than you, but with far less experience. Having only restarted my TWH and SSH, then starting my RMH when he was three. But, in my experience, if my horse gets too close to the rail in the arena or round pen while I'm riding, I tip his nose to turn him into the rail. Then, ride off with impulsion the opposite direction.
My experience has been to take it slow and easy, as the others have suggested. Plus, the clearer I am in my mind about what I expect, the easier it is for me to communicate my idea to my horse.
Good luck with your youngster!
 2005 Mountain Horse Demo
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winddanceragain
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Sun Sep 7th, 2008 07:02 pm |
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Jim, nice horse pictures. I like the colors.
How old was your racking and walking mares you had to sale? I can only guess at the pain you must had felt in making the decision to sale them.
Do you hear from the new owner(s) ? If so how are your 2 girls doing?
You sound as if your taking the time needed to help him be a wonderful trail horse.
As for the poo thing, I look at it this way,(please excuse me) If you gotta go you gotta go. It can be a bit difficult to hold back natural body functions.
With my horses while under saddle or during ground work, if they need to go, unless in danger, I let them take their time during those needs. I have never had a horse not continue to move even during these times if asked.
Just this morning I was walking a Stallions to his paddock, he leads smoothly with no pull or stud chain, but he stopped and when I look at him he was parked out and beginning to take care of his bladder needs. I was very thankful that he didn't need to earlier, in his stall. thats makes for a nicer stall to clean out this morning
Hope you enjoy your new guy for years to come.Last edited on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 07:04 pm by winddanceragain
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jn1022
G.O.G Community Member
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Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 03:22 am |
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The palomino racking mare is 10 yr old now and Duchess is a bay 15 yr old twh. I had bought them together from a guy in west Florida that was going to Tennessee all the time and bringing horses down to sell. Sunny was from Kentucky and Duchess came down from Maryland. Here's a pic of Duchess. I had them both for 4 years. Duchess was for my son to ride and Sunny was for me. My wife won't ride. My son won't anymore. Silver had become old enough to start and I just couldn't keep 3 ridden by myself. I had just built a 4 stall barn a year or so ago and they (the county) came and reappraised my property since I improved upon it. I got my new payment book for this year and they raised my taxes from 1700/yr to 7100/yr. I house payment went up $1050/month over the $2000 it already was. Plus I still had the new barn and fencing payment. I figured something had to give. Sunny and Duchess were my first and only horses. I bought Silver when he was just 8 months old. Now I just have Silver, but I rented out my other 3 stalls so I have plenty to care for. The mares left the first week of May. They went back to the west coast of Florida over by where I bought them. They went together to a young couple just moved in from Texas. I was glad for that. I do have their email and phone, but I figured it best to let them go. I enjoyed and loved them and I'm just crazy over Silver. A gelding is so much more loveable that the mares seemed to be. I always needed a bucket of food to get the mares. They'd always pull away from me when reaching to touch. Sunny was spooky as all get out when I got her and I was green. It made for some interesting trail rides. I rode exclusively on the trails. Never did like arena work. Boring !!! Now I'm stuck with that until Silver gets better. I miss my trail rides. Anyway, Boo Hoo!
Here's Duchess:
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